Transcript:
Angie Miller:
Hey, everyone, welcome back to our strong mind strong body podcast. I'm your host, Angie Miller. And today we are going to talk about sugar pop up. Okay? You may or may not remember that song. So you might not have just gotten that little thing that I just saying to you. But we're going to talk about specifically why it's so hard to break up with sugar. I don't know about you. But I officially one time in my life, I broke up with sugar. And I'm not even sure that it was a real breakup, because you know, there's all these hidden sugars. But I broke up with ice cream and mostly with chocolate. So I was kind of proud of myself, but it didn't last. And it just goes to show the breaking up with sugar is super hard to do. So today I have Michelle Ricker, she is an RD. And she's an amazing speaker, and she's going to talk to us about sugar. So welcome, Michelle.
Michelle Ricker:
Thank you so much, Angie. Yeah, I'm very excited to talk about this. I get questions all the time. And I don't think you're alone. It's a very difficult thing. And it's very true to your heart. So yeah, let's talk about this. Because it's, it's a pretty big deal.
Angie Miller:
It is a pretty big deal. So by the end of this podcast, Michelle and I were going to shoot you some straight talk specifically about is sugar really addictive? And how do we spot hidden sugars? And what is the impact of sugar on our emotional and our physical health? And is dark chocolate really healthy? I mean, that's the big question. That's what I really want to know. And that we can end the show. So, um, I have some I my first question, Michelle, for you is, I would like to know, Drumroll, please pop up above is sugar truly addicted?
Michelle Ricker:
Well, let's just start by saying addiction is a certain word, right? Meaning like, you cannot do without, and you will hurt yourself to go find this kind of thing. And you and so when we talk about addiction, there's a lot of research about it that says, hey, sugar is addictive. But if you look at it really, really, really close the way the body works, we kind of want to talk about it more as like a dependence, right? Because there's a little difference. It does act like an addiction in the brain. And I think that's really where you want to go with this is talking about how the brain responds to this.
Angie Miller:
I love that. You know what I love that, that you shifted the narrative to dependence, because you're right, addiction is a big, big loaded word. And if we're truly addicted to something, we will go to great lengths to get it. And if you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? It takes us back down to that basic need. So I love that. Let's go with that. Is there such a thing as a sugar dependency. And I'm really hoping that you're going to talk about the impact of sugar on the brain, you know, how it impacts those neural pathways that make us crave it? And I know you could do it justice? I cannot. So here's the floor. Michelle do tell
Michelle Ricker:
Thanks, Angie. Yeah, you know, it's like I said, when you're in the middle of it, and you're craving that chocolate or that ice cream, like you said, it feels like an addiction like you can't go without. So what's really happening in the brain is it's giving you these dopamine responses, right? It's in fact impacting your neurotransmitters, your hormones, all these things that are saying, Hey, give me something now to make me feel better. Right. And that's the way you truly feel when you're like craving that sugar, something, whatever it is, whether it's even that coffee that has sugar in it, right? You're feeling this dependence. And that's truly what happens with our neurotransmitters is that we're treating this almost like it is cocaine, right? There's a lot of similarities in the way that the brain responds to things. And that's what happens when sugar goes in. And we see a lot with this research. And especially we do a lot with rats, because we don't want to put too many people in the position to be in this addiction space. But when we give them like this huge amount of sugar over time, they want more and more and more and more and more, right? And it kind of numbs that response. So you have a little bit you're like, Oh, that's great. Then the next day, you have more and more, and you need more and more after that is what I'm saying. So like this dependence does respond in the brain, almost like an addiction in the way the brain needs it.
Angie Miller:
Okay, that was really good. That was an amazing explanation. So it impacts those dopamine receptors and those dopamine receptors get into those neural pathways. You have a little bit it says, Hey, that was kind of amazing. Can I have a little bit more please? Can I have a little bit more please? And I guess it's how one glass of wine leads to four. What do you think you know it is it is kind of that dependence That product. And and I can 100% relate to that. And we're going to talk later about is dark chocolate really healthy. So we don't want to jump to that. But I do think that it has to do with the quality of the sugar too, you know, because certain types of sugars don't seem to have don't seem to make my brain one time as much as other types of servers, right?
Michelle Ricker:
I'm sure if we look at it that way. I mean, if you look at what the basis of sugar is, is it's a carbohydrate, right? And the body looks at it as like the very basic level of carbohydrates. So a lot of things can respond that way. Like, that's why we really love bread. And we love bagels, and we love pretzels and things like that a lot of times, that's kind of we think of comfort foods, right? That's what happens in our brain. It gives us that nice feel good dopamine, serotonin response. We're now we're like, oh, okay, we feel good for the moment. Right? And then what happens is it starts fluctuating our blood sugar. So when you talk about quality of sugar, yeah, there's different types. Like if you're talking about milk, chocolate versus dark chocolate, those are different, right? very different in qualities. But we're talking about sugar sugar, like the basis of what a carbohydrate bond is, sugar is sugar, and the body looks at it that way. You know, and one thing I wanted to say about that Angie is like, you know, the way the body looks at carbohydrates is it's a primary source of energy. So we need that. And so bare basics, if you look at it, like, the way that our body works naturally, is we need those for energy. So a lot of times, that's probably how the sugar addiction starts, is that maybe when we're stressed when we're when we're not feeling good? When we're when we're low and food, our body says, You know what, I need some food, I need some energy make me feel better. And we go for carbohydrates, because it's our primary source of energy. And that's where sometimes that cycle happens. Because we get it, it gives us that soothing the brain says, Hey, nice, thank you. This is fantastic. And then it starts this blood sugar cycle, which I want to talk about a little bit more. Because when you're talking about carbohydrates all being the same, or sugars being the same, that's where we can really make a big difference in the way that we feel and the way that we can actually move through a sugar dependence or sugar addiction.
Angie Miller:
I love that. Let's do go there. So I'm Angie, and I'm talking to Michelle Ricker, she is an rdn. And we are talking about, can we break up with sugar? And why is it so hard to do? And Michelle just did a great job of explaining sugars response on the brain and talked about that dopamine kind of addiction and how it gets into the neural pathways. And now we're going to go into a deep dive on what happens with our blood sugar. And what why that's actually why we're actually experiencing this impact. So Michelle, I'm going to turn that over to you tell me about that. Blood Sugar cycle?
Michelle Ricker:
Yeah, sure. So yeah, so as a dietitian, I like to look at kind of full body function, right. So when you like talk about sugar. It's not just Yes, it tastes good. And it makes us feel good. And from your standpoint, where we're looking at here is that mental comfort, that mental dependency type thing. But we really look at like what the body needs big picture. It's influencing everything. And that's when I talk about blood sugar response. So we eat sugar, or a carbohydrate. And what it does is it raises our blood sugar, okay, because it gives us this little insulin boost, we now try to absorb it, we want all of it because we want all that energy. And then all of a sudden, if you don't have anything with that, which is typically what happens when you have like a doughnut or ice cream or something, it's just sugar, your blood sugar goes up, and then it drops pretty quick. Then again, you have that craving, right? So what happens is your body's like, Okay, my blood sugar is now low. I need energy again, give me more. And I think this is where that cycle of dependency this this gives me more carbohydrate, give me more sugar happens. So then you kind of get this up and down. Because you give it a little more sugar. The body's like, Oh, I need more because of those brain neurons. And then you get higher blood sugar, and then it drops even lower. So then you want more and you're in this vicious cycle and you feel it. Right emotionally, this is a big issue. Because not only are you like dependent with your brain, your body is now dependent on getting those carbohydrates.
Angie Miller:
So it's absolutely and did I'm sorry, and then you said What were you gonna
say? Sorry about that. It's a two fold Whammy on the body. You know, like it's a pretty difficult space. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, coming from somebody who really struggles with that, I 100% understand And that it almost just regulates emotions. And one of the big things that I work with as a, as a therapist, as you know, in mental health and in fitness is those dysregulated emotions and food such plays such an integral role in that, because when we're up, and then we're down in the warm up, and then we're down or emotions get dysregulated. And then the way that we respond and the way that we behave, and our our impulsivity, all of those things that come into play, when we feel dysregulated just has a really negative impact on our communication with other people and how we get along with other people, not to mention how we feel about ourselves. Right?
Michelle Ricker:
Absolutely. You know, that's one of the biggest things that we find with, especially with sugar, like you said, is that we now start getting that dependency feeling, like I said, with our neurons with the way that our brain is responding to this dopamine, that we're not happy, we feel a quick surge when we have that sugar. So though, it gives us this false boost, but then after that, it's a little bit more of like that addiction feeling where you get this kind of behavioral depression, you get a little bit of this feeling deprived. And like you said, that impacts your relationships to yourself and to others. It's now you're in this kind of like uneven space, this uneven balance with your emotions. So it's really tricky when we get into that into that really big cycle of it.
Angie Miller:
Yeah. And it's, you know, there's such a, there's so much complication around this. That's why binge eating is actually recognized now as the disorder because I think it has a lot to do with this cycle. It has a lot to do with this emotional dependency. And then there's this, you know, there's a lot of shame that goes into that. And so before we even talk about how do we actually break up of sugar, I think we need to talk about where some of those hidden sugars are. Because even when I broke up with sugar, my claim to fame was I got rid of ice cream, and I almost got rid of chocolate but kind of not really dark chocolate was allowed into my life and I always found a way to justify it, but I didn't crave it. And I guess that's my biggest thing is I didn't crave sugar the way that I used to. Then I got rid of all the easy stuff like I stopped eating snack wells, cookies or little Debbie's don't judge me it's a true story. Okay, like I grew up eating little Debbie's and hostess hoes, please do not judge. And I used to have this false perception that because I exercise, that was my big thing. Because I exercised and my weight didn't change. Well, I was okay, I was fighting the fight. But that has nothing to do with it. It has nothing to do with the damage that I potentially did to my brain, how emotionally you know what I felt, and the highs and lows that I experienced. And when I said goodbye to Little Debbie and hostess hohos. And I got to that point in my life, I felt so much more in control. And I don't mean like control. I mean control in a good way. Like I didn't feel dysregulated I didn't feel like I just felt more empowered, that I did not need something to get through my day. I did not need sugar. I was like sugar, I don't need you. You're like a bad date. And I'm done with you. So what are they headed sugars? Where are they?
Michelle Ricker:
Yeah, I think it's an interesting concept of what you're saying. Let me just back up one second, before we get into the hidden sugars, because like you said that going from all or nothing with sugar is very difficult for some people. And that's where that word addiction comes in, is that, you know, I want to talk about where sugar is in food. But I don't want you to feel like you have to go all or nothing, because that transition of going small steps sometimes is necessary because the brain is is telling you that you need this. And sometimes we go through a true withdrawal stage when we cut out all sugar, okay, so I think that, you know, just be a little bit aware of that type of thing. And we can talk about that a little bit more. But like the the sugar in food, like I said, if we think about it's white sugar, right, we know that that's sugar, we know that honey is sugar, a gobby, all those things that have different terms to them, those are all sugar, the body looks at them at breakdown into the basic level of sugar. But the hidden stuff or the things that maybe we don't think about would be like fruit juice, you know, although that breaks down into a fruit toast we don't get the fiber from eating the fruit itself. So the juice goes in almost as pure sugar. And that's the same as energy drinks that are out there. And I know that a lot of you think like, you know I'm doing this sugar free one, and that's better but sometimes all those like new products that are out there are pre workout drinks that are out there. A lot of them have sugar and it's fine to have a little bit before you work out kind of thing but it is sugar. Okay, so remember that impacts the brain that way. You know, coffee drinks, you know, all those ones really put a little powder in there, or they put some kind of tasty yumminess in your coffee. That's sugar, right. But the other ones are going to be like catch ups and barbecue sauce and salad dressings, all those kinds of things have sugar in them start, if you look at labels, you'll be able to see, it'll give you the carbohydrate. And then underneath that it actually says added sugar, or it says sugars. And that's added, that means it's not natural things. So all those things with coconut sugars that we cook with, all those things are going to have like some hidden sugars in there to be aware of. Hmm, yeah, so even the gavai even the honey, you're saying that in the end, it really breaks down the same way as just regular white sugar. And so we have to be careful with that. Um, you know, the thing with like, honey, there's some honey that have medicinal properties, like summer antimicrobial, they have a little more, you know, minerals in them, little nutrients in them. So there's something else to it, but you're not getting any fiber, if you have it straight up by itself, the body recognizes it as sugar, and is going to respond the same way with your blood sugar. And the browser's.
Angie Miller:
Yeah, so I have a question for you about the fruit juice. So I'm assuming you're saying or I'm just gonna clarify here, you're saying like I opened up account a pineapple? And the juice itself, are you saying a banana and Apple, all of that is the same?
Michelle Ricker
It's not all the same. I'm saying fruit juice itself, meaning that if you're getting a can of juice or a carton of juice, but so so that's kind of a really good point. And is that like when we talk about eating sugar, right, I think that a way to break the habit is to move to natural sugars, right, because you get that that sugar taste, right? When you're having fruit itself, not just in the, we're going to take the fiber out, squish it down and just give you the juice of it without the pulp. Okay, so when you eat fruit, you're getting the pulp with it too. And usually, that helps the body slow things down a little bit with a blood sugar response. But the brain still tastes sweet, right? Cuz you're getting fructose. So it's different than than just sucrose, which is sugar kind of thing. So when you eat the food, you're getting a fiber, so it slows down that response. But again, your taste buds and your brain still say, Oh, that was sweet. I got a little bit of sugar kick there, right, like I got a little bit of a nice little, little appease to get through. So that's a great way to move things into transition, if you're going to go like no sugar, or you're going to try to get off of this, this craze that you're on.
Angie Miller:
I love that. And that's what I was hoping you would clarify. Because you're absolutely right, eating a banana can really be a really good filler for me when I'm craving something sweet the same way with eating an apple. And I'm not a big fruit juice person. So that works just as well for me. So I love that. I think that that makes a lot of sense. You're getting the Pope, you're getting more fibers, you know, more fills. So it does kind of have that same impact. As you know, like you said, it's a good substitute for if I'm craving a big old chocolate chip cookie. I'm obviously it's not going to be exactly the same. But I also want to go back to what you said Try not to go cold turkey, because you're absolutely right. I mean, it's like trying to go off of coffee gives you big headaches, you can have withdrawal. So for me it was a real slow breakup, you know, so I wasn't 100% attested that. I think that we have to break up slowly. So let's move into you know, Michelle, how do we get rid of sugar cravings. And again, I'm talking to Michelle Ricker, she's an rdn. And we are talking about how to break up with sugar. So what what's some of your go to things to help us get rid of sugar cravings? We just talked about eating fruit. But what are some other things we can do?
Michelle Ricker:
Yeah, yeah, again, because because we talked about how addictive sugar can be in the brain, we need to break up with it slowly. You know, this isn't something that we just get rid of overnight. And you know that firsthand. Right? So one of the things that you need to do is really think through that is because we're gonna have to change patterns. Right. And that's one thing that we we kind of forget when we talk about food is that we get emotionally attached in our body actually is attached. So again, we talk about sugar as a dependency, or that you get addicted. So we need to make sure that the brain can handle it. So again, we need to make sure number one, I think the biggest thing you can do is try to get your blood sugar stabilized throughout the day. So you're not in a place where your body needs that carbohydrate. And you know, the dopamine response from sugar is gonna give you that high and get you back up there. So if you can throughout the day, make sure you look at your protein, how much protein you're getting at each meal. It sounds so counter intuitive because I'm not talking about sugar, but we're talking about how the body responds, and what it needs at certain times. And when it needs that sugar. Okay, so if you're getting protein throughout the day, it slows down, that blood sugar response, you don't get as high of peaks and you don't get as low of lows. So it can help you balance and then you might not have those cravings as much, okay, then you can use fruit, like I said, or, you know, even more vegetables, if you can get in a lot more fiber, your stomach is attached to your brain as far as telling you that you're satiated, right, you're satisfied. And if you can get the body to say I'm satisfied, then it's like, oh, I'm not craving that dopamine, I'm not craving that, that big high that I get from sugar, it can be it can now self regulate a little bit more. So get more fruits, vegetables, you know, try to get your blood sugar stable, a little bit of protein, make sure you're you're really watching your protein throughout the day, and take it in small steps. You know, like this week, I'm going to cut out like you said, hohos, or whatever it is. Next week, I'm going to stop my you know, the sugar drinks, you know, and that way the body gets a minute to kind of help respond. And you're, you're substituting with something else your blood sugar is staying stable.
Angie Miller:
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I think that that's 100%. Give yourself a week to like all one thing. And even during that week, let go of it slowly. My husband's a big fruit juice drinker, he drinks every type of fruit juice. And so you know, to just say to him, you know, cut out all fruit juice as well cut down to one glass a day, or whatever that might be. But yes, absolutely. I love that. I think that sustainability, we all know that with behavior modification we do well, when we slowly modify behavior. But I love that you're saying I'm more fiber, I'm more protein, because it's going to really stabilize those levels of blood sugar. And you know, one thing that I do want to say on that note, Michelle is one thing that helps me anyway is some of those apps that are out there, where you can put your biggest, I don't know about the rest of the world, but I kind of eat the same stuff every day. Like I'm super boring. I know when I'm going out for breakfast, I know when I'm going out for lunch. And I know when I'm an average dinner unless we go out. So it's really easy. Initially, it's a lot of labor upfront to load all those foods into those apps. But what they do is they give you pretty pictures bar graphs of this is how much protein you had this so much sugar you had, you're like, Oh my gosh, because when you actually input the label, it's it's so revealing. And so if you're not super good at it, or you know what, maybe as trainers, you're like, Oh, come on, Angie, this is my speed. I do this all the time. But guess what it might not be your clients, and the minute they loaded into an app, you're not just preaching the preach, you are actually giving them a visual representation of what they're doing. And you're not telling them like I told you, it's the app that's revealing the information and they're discovering it on their own. And that's when we all really change behaviors when we discover it on our own. But it's actually the impact on our body and our mind. And then that's when we're able to move forward differently.
Michelle Ricker
Right? Oh, my gosh, no kidding. Yeah, I truly believe that's a great way to start. And also, like find substitutes that work for you. You know, like, like going cold turkey. Like I said, I'm I don't think that all fruit juice is bad. And then everyone needs to cut it out. I think if you're doing it and in the right amounts, or whatever, and you feel like it's not an addiction you're getting, you know, like you're just using it for the calories and the vitamins, that type of thing. It's okay in small amounts and certain kinds. But if you do have this as an issue, and you're really trying to cut back on sugar to make sure that your brain stuff stays healthy, because one thing that we didn't mention is its impact on all timers. And the way it actually breaks down the brain, and also causes inflammation in the body. There's a lot of things about sugar, besides just that addictive quality, that aren't fabulous for the body. So in order to like move past it and get substitutes, you know, you have to look for those. Like, I think that you know, if you look at an apple with natural peanut butter, if you move from you know, the Skippy or the Jiff, or whatever that has all the sugar in it to a natural, that means it's just not some maybe a little bit of salt, then you still get that kind of that feel you feel like you're having some good peanut butter, but then you'd have an apple or a banana or something to give you that sweet to go with it. And that's a way better option than just having the sugary you know, fake peanut butter or whatever it is. Things like that, that are like you know, good substitutes that you can kind of in a way trick the mind to believe that you know, you're still getting a treat. Those are the things that I think you know, and and we've done really well with like different products out there like no question makes a peanut butter cup now that has protein and only one gram of sugar, and it tastes fine. You know, like, it's not going to give you that same ridiculous mouthfeel that we get from chocolate and OUI dewiness. But it is going to satisfy that brain and you mentally of looking at it and eating it. Like you said, there's a lot of that mental, you know, it's like smoking, what do we do with our hands? You know, if we get rid of a cigarette, it's the same with food. If you're not eating something, what do you what are you doing? You know, you need to substitute it. So I think you're right, like the app helps give you ideas, and then go and you know, find some options that work for you, that gives you that same satisfaction, or at least.
Angie Miller:
And I love that I love the idea of you know what, okay, so you got peanut butter with a banana peanut butter with an apple, because at the end of the day, I think that we need to congratulate ourselves that a lot of times with food, especially with sugar, there's a lot of shame. Like I said, there's a lot of shame that goes into it, because it leads to emotional eating, which can lead to binge eating and all these other things that really can cause a lot of problems for us. And so I think that if we can substitute something like a banana with peanut butter, we need to be proud of ourselves that we were able to transition and, and not do this shame thing like, well, I should just be able to cut it out. No, there are no shoulds here. How about if we just give ourselves the opportunity to succeed, and take it slow and steady and try a banana with peanut butter. And then maybe we can transition that out of there. But I absolutely love that. And you know, Michelle, I want to go back to one thing you said you talked about inflammation on the brain and sugar. And I really want to throw a teaser out to all of you. Michelle is going to join me in a future podcast. And so we're going to save that one. We're going to talk about inflammation on the brain and sugar. And I want you to join in on our on our next podcast because we are going to deep dive into that because inflammation and cognitive decline. That's a huge, huge thing that I personally want to deep dive into and I think would be really good for everybody. So before we end this segment, and again, I'm talking to Michelle Ricker, we're talking about breaking up with sugar. Before we end this segment, Michelle, I want to know I have to know his dark shirt. is dark chocolate. really healthy.
Michelle Ricker:
It is, it is thank goodness. Right? So yeah, yeah, I mean, and you have to look at dark chocolate as a 72%, cocoa, or cacau. And big and higher, right. So 72% chocolate, and higher is going to give you some really good benefits. Actually, when we talk about, you know, this inflammation, it's actually quite anti inflammatory, giving you some good antioxidants within there. And the flavonoids that are in there are actually going to help with like blood flow to the brain. So not only is it like a better substitute, it's actually good for you. So I highly recommend it on a regular basis. So either like I said, 72% chocolate, or even go with like the cocoa nibs or something in your, in your yogurt or whatever it is in your smoothie, those things are hugely beneficial. So go for it. If you can make that a nice substitute for you. It's fabulous to do every day.
Angie Miller:
Okay, and I honestly for me, personally, I find that when the sugar is 72% or 80%, or 96%, I don't crave it as much as I do if I just put a piece of milk chocolate into my mouth, but is it then the higher the better. So if it goes up to 92%, it's even better, or you're just saying that anything over 72% is fair game.
Michelle Ricker:
Actually, the higher the better, because you're looking for the real cow. So when you have that cow, they break it down and then they they kind of powder it they mix it a little bit. And so that's where you're getting some of that more creaminess that that nice yumminess that's when the the percentage goes down. So the higher is actually going to give you some more the benefits you could you're getting more of that than natural antioxidants and that those flavonoids from that the cacau itself.
Angie Miller:
Okay, so then one last question on that note. So now everybody's gotten in the dark chocolate game and when I go up to the grocery store, I'm like whoa, the world is my oyster on this dark chocolate. And even though I look for that higher number is there anything I should look for in any of those bars or that might may not make that dark chocolate is healthiest some of the other options?
Michelle Ricker:
That is such a great question. It's really hard to tell in the store and when you're looking at it but quality does matter with this like I said because you're looking at trying to get the true cacao out of it. But you know if you just look at the ingredients and make sure there isn't a ton of added sugar to that nice dark chocolate. So there could be a 72% dark chocolate that has you know toffee in it, whatever in that toffee is all sugar So you're kind of not getting the same benefit, you're still getting the dark chocolate, but you're getting that sugar fix as well. So I think that's where you can, you know, looking at the label on some of those, you can actually make a difference. Otherwise, you know, the quality is really hard to tell just from the straight label, you know?
Angie Miller:
Yeah, you know, when we, when we in this podcast, I'm going to put into Google search, what's the healthiest start shopping because Google knows everything.
Michelle Ricker:
Really good brands, you know, I wouldn't go with the, you know, I'd stay with like more probably international brands kind of thing. You know, you tend to get more stuff or like you said, there's a lot of people in the dark chocolate game right now that are playing nice, you know, but I think for the big name, you know, that do a 10 ton more of the sugary chocolates. I wouldn't necessarily go with those.
Angie Miller:
Well, here's how I noticed a true story recently a real differences. I was in a, I was at Rancho Laporta in Mexico, and I was teaching there, and they make their own dark chocolate there and they sell it in it is extremely expensive. And I bought some and I came home and they were little nibs and I was like, oh my gosh. Really. Not the same.
Michelle Ricker:
For those listeners that haven't really tried a dark chocolate yet it does get more bitter, the less percentage you know that you go or the higher percentage of dark chocolate. So when you started the 72% you'll notice a difference from no chocolate. But once you start getting higher to the 80s or the countifs or whatever, it does have more bitterness. So just be aware.
Angie Miller:
Yeah, well, it was like revealing. It was like the big reveal. For me. I was like, yep, I've been kidding myself. So Michelle Ricker, I so appreciate you being on this has been super fun to talk about sugar. Plus, I could talk about sugar all day long. I don't know. We could talk about wine, we could talk about sugar dating. There's just certain topics that are very fascinating to me. But you know, Michelle, she's gonna be on again in the future. We're going to talk about the brain and we're going to talk about um, you know how to keep our emotion stable. We're going to deep dive more into that and we're going to talk about the whole inflammation game and so you didn't hear it all you got to come back. So thank you Michelle Ricker, thank you to all of our NASM and AFFA friends. Thank you so much for tuning in. And if you didn't catch us live, you can, you know, tune people in the Spotify to Apple podcast, get on, talk to us read it, do what you need to do, but I do hope you come back. We'll see you next time.
